cracked mask sportmask

[LukeD]

Well since this was shut down over on the GS board I might as well post it here. I was rudely shut down over there and told I do not know what I'm talking about. This mask has been scrutinized over by many top safety experts in the automotive field as well a few composite suppliers with well over 40 years in the business. According to God Tony at Sportmask...I never got in touch with him about this mask. I did before the thread was posted over there. Whether my email never went through, or he ignored it I don't know. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say it burped on my side. What I will not give him the benefit of the doubt on is his information provided on the GSBB. Since the thread was locked and I could not respond... here we go.

Direct from Sean the admin(tool) at the GS...
1. The mask is a prototype. Since it was built there have been several design improvements (this is how he recognized it was a prototype; new masks presumably have a different shape or different vents.). The mask you buy today is very different that the one featured in that photo. Prototypes are not commercially available and can only be purchased used form the original user which typically are personal acquaintances of Tony.
2. The mask pictured at the start of this thread has a 100% pure Carbon layer as do all current T3's.
I’m no mask maker but here’s my best attempt at regurgitating how the mask is made: Due to some manufacturing process involving vacuums, all the layers are sucked together very tightly ensuring an even distribution of resin. This process allows more layers to be applied as they are condensed giving the mask additional strength. It may also explain why the OP feels this is all fiberglass; it is likely difficult to distinguish the layers. Tony was clear that it's not an ALL carbon mask, there are other layers in there.
3. Tony tells me that he would have honored the warranty for this mask -even though in my opinion it looks like the chin was stomped on and even though it is a prototype.
4. What was perhaps most interesting is Tonys strong desire to have this thread remain open, he’s actually enjoying the conversation.

My response.
1. It is not a prototype and was not bought directly from him. It was bought commercially from a dealer. Even if it is a prototype (which it is not), It's nice that good 'ole Tony prototypes on the public. God knows that I'd love to have prototype airbags from GM..
2. Carbon is not white. pure carbon fiber has no color except black. Anyone ever worked with any field of chemistry? * even high school chemistry deals with it... carbon is black. Carbon fiber weave can have the color slightly altered by being interwoven with other materials, fiberglass, dyed fiberglass, even kevlar. The inner layer as well is not carbon fiber but instead this product..
http://carbonsales.com/Graphite-Hexcel- ... Twill.html
http://www.carbonfibergear.com/colored- ... -texalium/
3. This mask was in no way tampered with. It was not stomped on and only took hockey abuse. In Sean's opinion it was stomped on? Is he an expert now? If warranty was honored on this mask, i'd want what is advertised, a FULL CARBON FIBER MASK.
4. If he's enjoying the conversation, why didn't Tony chime in? I'd love to hear his comments up against much more prestige companies from here to Germany who have looked at this. What a joke on his part.

Here's the original thread..more pics will follow.
Here's a little something I have been researching in my spare time for the past month or so. I received this mask from a customer to be repaired. Checking out the crack on the chin I decided that there was no way this mask was repairable for ice use. The crack runs all the way through the shell and along the length of the chin. In some areas an exact-o knife can easily fit through the crack. Upon doing further research I thought that I could perhaps repair it for ball hockey use and give it to a young cousin of mine. Having been involved in the auto body business for quite a while and dealing with the motorcycle racing world...quick fiberglass jobs aren't that big of a deal. One thing I had to first find out was...what is this thing made out of?

A sportmask T3 from their website.. "Offering precision fit and superior impact resistance the T3 incorporates the latest in composite technology. Sparing no expense, it’s construction consists of the best woven composite material utilizing multiple layers of high quality fibreglass and carbon fibre bonded by a specially formulated resin."


First order of business... let's check out the material and the crack.

Pretty serious crack we have there. From the crack I was able to see plenty of fiberglass throughout the shell. Seeing that the backside looked like carbon fiber I decided to dissect it some more with pieces of this carbon fiber flaking off...



Next to some other helmets, Troy Lee Designs D2 and the HJC Si 12 the carbon fiber looked "funny" It had nowhere near the depth as the other 2 carbon helmets and the color wasn't even correct. Now, having done some work for a major road bicycle company (think Tour de France) as well as all my Superbike work...I know what carbon fiber looks like. I know that there are dyes to change the color slightly. I have seen the bicycle company use black dye which made the fiber darker...but still maintained it's depth. All the AMA motorcycles I have seen have had full carbon fiber parts. Anything from wheels to body parts to even carbon rotors.... * if you'd like to see a beautiful piece of carbon work check out a Ducati D16rr race prepped. Long story short, I was able to get a piece of race carbon fiber to compare.



now I realize that one has been finished and one is raw...but major differences are there. In seeing this I decided to investigate some more. Why not cut it up and sand it... I don't have much to lose in terms of cost.

[LukeD]

600 grit wet sand. as you can see from the sticker.. I did not do much sanding at all. Where did the black weave go and what's this clear layer? I have never had carbon fiber just sand off like that.
So how about we take a DA to the front side to see what we have to work with...

Pink body filler. Now...this might not be bondo. It might be just a primer layer for the topcoats. You can clearly see the pink filling though in imperfections within the fiberglass and then a white primer layer and black on top of that.
Finally...I took a grinder to it. After the cracks and the sanding, I might as well try to get through the layers.

As you can see, this is fiberglass all the way through. The "carbon fiber" is within a clear sheet which seems to be similar to clearcoat or plastic. In this picture you can clearly see that the "carbon" is impregnated into the clear layer and sands off very easily. It's not even structural at all.

I am fully aware of the mask wars that go on here. Call me a troll? fine...but when a person's health is at stake (in the case of a helmet or mask). I have to at least check into it, do some research and make people aware of what I found. Every person I brought this to throughout different industries dealing with composite work did not think this was real carbon fiber. "proglass" is a fancy name for fiberglass and that black layer is mostly decorative. Who makes sportmask? To me what is posted on their site is very deceiving and the product is not what is advertised.

So given all of this, what are your thoughts? Let's see some mask maker's opinions. With DOT and SNELL...this would not fly. I'm honestly thinking of sending this into HECC to have them check it out. This should go into the mask discussion thread but it is too large and I feel everyone should take a look at it in it's own thread.

[Vega30]

I saw this thread on the gsbb, I gave it a good read and thought it was very informative. I didn't bother posting because I knew it would start some war. It is a shame tony didn't pipe up and I will definably consider this when I purchase my next mask.

[goaltech]

Tony tells me that he would have honored the warranty for this mask -even though in my opinion it looks like the chin was stomped on and even though it is a prototype.

The same crack happened to Cam Ward. Did he stomp on it also? The biggest problem I have with Sportmask is he never answers his phone or emails. I had problems he wouldn’t answer; I had to go back to GM for help. Many people on GS had the same problem.

[shadow]

Great, Another mask maker that we can't trust.

If he is lying about what he uses in his mask...what else is he lying about?

[ssewild30]

Great, Another mask maker that we can't trust.

If he is lying about what he uses in his mask...what else is he lying about?

probably that he actually isn't a guy...

[slapshot98]

i have the razor and i took a clapper off the forehead and left a crack (and a part of the puck). so i emailed sportmask and talked to darlene and she got everything taken care of. basically built me a new mask.

some pics of the damage.



just a quick question didnt if feel wrong dissecting part of a really expensive helmet

[irishgoaltender22]

First off I am not surprised by the response you received at GSBB. I had a terrible experience with Stace from Stacey Composites and made a post detailing it (which can also be found here)... the post was flamed by many saying I was the idiot and Stace is a God, then it was locked and removed with, you guessed it, Sean being responsible.

With that said I appreciate you posting this as I have been under the impression from various mask makers that I have talked to that Sportmask, in their mid-upper level masks made a solid product. Needless to say I have crossed them off my list or reputable companies given what has been shown in this thread. I moved from Gabe's 570 at KOHO to his self titled 2608 mask and will be sticking with his masks as long as he is in business but do a fair bit of recommending of various gear on various forums, but no more of Sportmask.

To quickly respond to the question asked above, "just a quick question didnt if feel wrong dissecting part of a really expensive helmet" ... I wouldnt feel weird about it. He went through the time and effort to attempt to contact Tony without a response. Feeling he wasnt going to receive any kind of compensation from Sportmask he went ahead and decided to investigate what went into the mask as such a crack through the whole shell should not be present in a kevlar/carbon fibre mask.

If you had a year old set of PS3 pads and they had some huge rip down the front of the pad, RBK said * off and you couldnt sell or fix it, wouldnt you take it apart and see what goes into it?

The number of solid gear makers is dwindling rapidly, sad.

[cuprajake]

i had an itech mask 4600 irc, cat eye version, took a slapper to the forhead and it cracked right through, this is a certified mask. made by a giant 'ITECH'

i also had a ps3, it stopped working after about 9 months,
the lamboghin giaddo sets on fire


what im trying to get at is this'

you cannont make something man made 100% correct 100% of the time, you can have contamination, anything that could effect the structure of the mask, whats to say that a mask hasnt been left in the boot of a car in the hot texus sun?? this will weaken the structure of the mask.


i think whats more importnat is the mis information from the manufacturer.

btw the mask cracke up above, it looks like the gel coat went only, did the crack come all the way through to the other side??

[shadow]

Luke,
I will say that your Sportmask is in very bad shape. The chin looks like it exploded! But if you think your mask looks bad. My friends Stacey mask was 10 times worse than that. This is what happens when you have somebody else making them for you...like Phil Maltese said in his blog. For all we know, the mask could be made out of polyester resin too.

What I don't understand is this was a girls mask that broke? But in the video his masks are withstanding shots at 85mph. I guess he's lying to us again!